17 comments

  • snide 1 hour ago
    First, this is cool! Well done.

    I live next to a State Park. It sounded really cool when I bought the house. No neighbors! Privacy! There is a trail accessible from my properly that goes into some woods, which you only want to be in during the Fall / Spring because the ticks and chiggers are intense.

    The biggest issue with sharing a border with the state is the fence line. Technically it's on them to maintain. The woods are filled with mostly 200 foot trees. They exist right up to my property and fall every year during big storms. There goes the fence line. I have dogs so the fence is important. Otherwise they run out into the woods that have licensed bow-hunting during the Winter.

    In practice its impossible to get the fence fixed. You are working through layers of bureaucracy and mismanagement. There is no vested interest from a parks service to work well with hundreds of neighbors individually. I'd build fence lines myself, and could easily pay for it, but it's the upkeep of those fences that would be difficult because so many trees (really, it's every year) fall down from their side.

    My main point is that sharing a properly line with the government is more like sharing a properly line with nobody. You may as well own that land. Don't expect any upkeep and go in with eyes open.

    • weitendorf 59 minutes ago
      Hey, I mean this in as kind a way as possible, but I actually don’t think the government should pay for the fence line!

      If you wouldn’t even pay for it yourself, as pretty much the sole beneficiary and someone who could afford it but would rather the money go elsewhere, why would it make sense for other taxpayers to pay for it?

      Isn’t the premise of “you may as well own that land” the entire appeal of living next to public land anyway?

      • jerf 42 minutes ago
        My family used to live next to state land. The state can be very pissy about its land. If the fence line is on the state land, which it almost certainly is barring a surveying error when it was put up, it is entirely possible that if he fixed it, he would actually get in trouble with the state. Hopefully not actual legal trouble... but only hopefully, certainly not a "oh they would never bother". Oh they most certainly do sometimes decide to bother about the most random things.

        My default presumption, without checking with them directly, is not only that it would not be allowed, but that this is also very much not a "better to ask forgiveness than permission" situation either. Even just asking the question can draw attention from them you may not want.

        The ready accessibility of the land is advantageous in some ways, but as neighbors the state can be quite nasty. Your other neighbors don't tend to have anywhere near the regulatory firepower to make sure you comply with what they want.

        • estearum 33 minutes ago
          I think they’re suggesting building their own fence on their own property and eating the cost (as the sole beneficiary) of maintaining it through tree falls.
        • _heimdall 33 minutes ago
          I'd also assume the fence is on state land if its theirs to maintain. That doesn't stop someone from putting up their own fence on their side of the property line though.
          • jerf 10 minutes ago
            You couldn't integrate it into theirs, so you'd be looking at having to fence in the entire space you want the dogs in because the gap you'd leave would have to be big enough for a dog.

            Which is hardly the end of the world, but it can definitely grind the gears to be spending thousands when you could fix the problem for several hundreds, if not perhaps several tens, of dollars if they wouldn't be assholes about it. But I would absolutely advise anyone in that situation to spend the thousands and not bank on the state not being assholes about it.

            I can also add that you can't even be sure that if you got away with it for years that you will continue to get away with it. The particular issue that my father got into a bit of hassle with the state about is that he accidentally put a pole barn across the state line. Didn't mean to, but he misread the survey markers. Fortunately, they let him remediate it at his expense without pursuing the matter any further legally... but it means they did, after several years of it being there, come through a with a survey team and verify that nobody on the border was crossing into their land, and anything they found they made the residents fix no matter how many years the deviation had been there. All the laws about such thing between two citizens mean nothing to the state.

            • troupo 7 minutes ago
              > You couldn't integrate it into theirs, so you'd be looking at having to fence in the entire space

              Oh no. Tbe preposterous idea of putting a fence around your own property.

      • IanCal 49 minutes ago
        > Hey, I mean this in as kind a way as possible, but I actually don’t think the government should pay for the fence line!

        Which is a fine option, but it should be something agreed to by both parties. You can't just hand over a cost like that, and if you buy property with some kind of agreement this choice is baked into the original price. It makes perfect sense for the government to uphold agreements it has made.

        Secondly - if they did own the fence line, it'd be on the government to come and fix it when one of their trees breaks it, surely?

        • estearum 32 minutes ago
          Did the government agree to maintain a fence…?
      • empyrrhicist 35 minutes ago
        > Isn’t the premise of “you may as well own that land” the entire appeal of living next to public land anyway?

        If you start actively managing it (removing invasive species, dead trees etc.) the state can take a more active interest at any time and sue/fine you into oblivion.

      • slingvora 54 minutes ago
        [flagged]
    • bdcravens 48 minutes ago
      Put up your own fence inside of your property line that you can keep up to your needs and standards.
      • timcobb 36 minutes ago
        Sounds like trees would fall onto it every year :/
        • intrasight 23 minutes ago
          So move your fence 50 feet away from the property line. Obviously, this means you need to find a big property if it's adjacent to state land with large trees.
    • ram1500natrluvr 23 minutes ago
      Do you have room to put up a fence away from the treeline?
    • hasbot 1 hour ago
      That's a good point. What about wetlands? My property has a terrible mosquito problem and I just found out there is a pond/swamp hidden in the brush. Since it's my property, I'll take steps to reduce the mosquito problem next year but if it was public land, that'd probably wouldn't be acceptable.
      • jaggederest 1 hour ago
        If you throw some mosquito dunks with BT into any given water body small enough it doesn't have a name, nobody is going to come after you. I think it's probably a pretty prosocial thing to do, unless I'm missing something
        • verelo 1 hour ago
          My internal dialog can imagine my biologist wife yelling at you already.

          Honestly i do not know the full scope of this one, but if there's one thing I've learnt from observing her work over the last decade...it's humans need to stop adding chemicals to water bodies with the goal of thinking they're helping something.

          • jephs 53 minutes ago
            Note it's not a chemical agent; its bacterial spores that infect and kill mosquito larvae! I'm pretty sure they're not harmful to anything that isn't a mosquito, blackfly, gnat, or midge. Though midges are important to pond ecosystems as a source of food for fish and dragonflies and stuff? Idunno, ask this guy's wife.
            • verelo 50 minutes ago
              I will ask her and report back...

              I can imagine her having some long explanation about the unknown risks of man spreading this substance, even if its not a chemical agent. I lean on the edge of listening to Grandpa Simpson on these kind of things: https://i.imgur.com/MdjduDH.png

          • ses1984 57 minutes ago
            Mosquito dunk is some kind of microbial culture that’s supposed to be safe.
            • verelo 57 minutes ago
              The path to hell is paved with good intentions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cane_toads_in_Australia

              It might well be safe, but the question is what are the downstream affects of reducing the population of mosquitos (or other bugs in the water that this substance impacts). Maybe they've exclusively positive, but I assure you determining that is no walk in the park.

              • smaudet 42 minutes ago
                I can see the headline now:

                "Mosquito dunks linked to declining bear population - farmers struggling with deer populations"

                • verelo 38 minutes ago
                  ha yeah, that's exactly where my brain goes too.
            • james_marks 48 minutes ago
              The mosquitoes don't exist in isolation though. Isn't this exactly how food chains / ecosystems work? You can't remove a tier without consequences.
              • amanaplanacanal 33 minutes ago
                It depends. In North America our worst mosquitos (the disease carrying ones) aren't native, they are from the old world. I think everybody would be fine if they were no more.
      • otherwatersflow 1 hour ago
        [dead]
    • bell-cot 27 minutes ago
      > I live next to a State Park.

      In what state? Last I knew, the State Parks in most US states were miserably underfunded - so quick fixes (for pretty much anything, not just fences) just ain't gonna happen.

      And what's the legal status of the fallen trees? In a fair number of places a 200' tree, already down, might be kinda valuable.

    • otherwatersflow 1 hour ago
      [flagged]
  • windowshopping 2 minutes ago
    This is super unreliable. I clicked through a few of the listings and none of them were what this site seemed to think they were. In one case it said a unit had 50 acres of land, and when I clicked through it was a two-bedroom condo with no land. Another said it had 1400 acres of land and when I clicked through it was 0.14.
  • hasbot 1 hour ago
    This is interesting though not really for me. I know that without trails, I won't be walking past the end of my property onto other property. I've probably spent a year of my life building trails on my own property.

    When I look for a parcel of land, I'm also interested in proximity to healthcare, groceries, airports (bad!), motor sports, shooting ranges; general steepness of the property particularly at the roadway (too steep makes the property unusable), topography in general (any flat spots to build a house?); availability of power; water features; bikability (checked by looking at Strava's heatmap); average number of days temperature > 85F; average number of days temperature < 30F. There's more but this list is long enough already.

  • kyleblarson 25 minutes ago
    I owned a house on 60 acres in Washington State that was bordered on 2 sides by state land (WA DNR). It was generally great and the only time I closed my gate was actually these two weeks of every year for regular rifle deer season. I never had issues with hunters coming on my property (I did give some friends permission to bow hunt). My driveway was about a mile long and had to cross DNR land to reach my property, but I had an easement. The easements typically have a 35 year expiration and it would take extreme circumstances for the state not to renew an existing easement. Complete and total privacy is really nice, but it's certainly a lot of effort and money to maintain a remote property of that size with a large house. I had to travel to SF a lot for work and that was certainly not ideal: 2.5 hour drive minimum to a tiny airport that only served Seattle, then on to SF.
  • Anon1096 1 hour ago
    If you have public land do you just have people walking over the property boundary onto your parcel all the time? Especially in the more populous states like NJ some of them I'd expect that to be pretty common, interesting idea as a thing that people search out specifically for though.

    Regardless, neat site. Couple things, first maybe a disclaimer on why you would want this on the home page? And on the state page itself I can't tell how bordering is different than adjacent. IMO just calling it "within 75m" would be better, and since this is for the US consider making it based on feet :p. Also, I would recommend that at least for user facing strings though you give it a little TLC and remove the really really obvious Claudisms

    > official boundary maps, not listing descriptions.

    > An analysis of publicly available boundary data — not a survey, and not a listing service

    plus everything on the How It Works page is extremely obviously LLM.

    • otherwatersflow 1 hour ago
      Thanks, this is useful feedback.

      On people crossing over: it depends a great deal on the land. Next to state game lands you'll see hunters in season; next to a big national forest you may rarely see anyone. It's very dependent on individual perspective and location.

      Bordering vs adjacent: bordering means the parcel lines actually touch and there's a measured shared edge; adjacent means no shared edge but within about 250 ft (usually a road or a strip of other land in between). You're right that the state pages don't make that clear, and feet is the better unit for a US site. Tho most US geospatial data is published in metric lol.

      And fair point on the copy. I run a small design studio and built this in my free time, I leaned on AI for a lot of the site text. The "Why this exists" section on How it works is my own story, but the rest deserves a pass in my own voice.

      • pwg 1 hour ago
        > I leaned on AI for a lot of the site text.

        So that's why the site text reads as AI slop.

    • hasbot 1 hour ago
      It's weird how people think navigating through undeveloped land is like walking across a parking lot. Brush, branches, thorns, downed trees, uneven ground, etc can make walking through undeveloped land difficult to impossible.
  • dirtbag__dad 5 minutes ago
    Yes! As another Pennsylvanian, this is a hard requirement for my forever home. The idea that I’d go all-in on a large property in an undeveloped area, only for the surrounding land to get developed or demolished is scary. State game lands is a way to protect against that outcome.

    Also a concern is proximity to fracking and now data centers. Not sure how to see if neighbors sold their underground…

    As an anecdote, my parent’s home, where I grew up, is a small plot along my town’s watershed property. When the price of lumber went up recently, the town council conveniently remembered that the watershed property was once a massive “tree farm,” and since has leveled all of the surrounding woods. We never expected this. It has been emotionally crushing.

  • bko 1 hour ago
    This is cool, but isn't owning property bordering public land undesirable?

    Sure, there's the ability to hike directly from your home, but I imagine you'll regularly have people wander on to your property. And if something illegal happens on your property by a different party, you might be liable.

    Seems like the cons outweigh the pros. Or is there something I'm missing?

    • qzw 1 hour ago
      I think for an individual owner there are some downsides, but if you're a big developer buying a large piece of land it can become a selling point. There's a private residential development in my state where they completely enveloped the entrance to an existing state park trail/boardwalk. So to access it, you actually have to go through this gated community. Supposedly anyone can go in if they say they're going to the state park, but I'm not sure that's true in practice and you have to interact with the private guard gate and show ID. I was able to go in with my family, but we look like a typical suburban family, so that doesn't mean others wouldn't have more trouble. It's a pretty gross case of effectively privatizing a public resource.
      • otherwatersflow 1 hour ago
        That's the flip side of this: private land controlling the way into public land. It's a real problem in a lot of places, and an interesting thing to map someday.

        American Prairie in Montana is an example going the other way: a nonprofit buying private land that surround public land and opening them to the public. It's somewhat contentious locally, but it shows how much the private parcels around public land shape who can actually use it.

      • oblio 41 minutes ago
        > I was able to go in with my family, but we look like a typical suburban family.

        How does the typical suburban family look like? Did all 3-4-5 of you drive F150s there?

        • collingreen 10 minutes ago
          It means a group of people unlikely to be stopped and turned away at that gate. My assumption is white, middle class, dressed boring but clean, decent car without damage, with young kid(s), no/light tattoos, no motorcyckes in the back and no drug/booze/gun stickers or visible stuff. Basically someone the Karen's won't call to complain about.

          Other people deserve access to public land too but might not pass the vibe check of the private guards, which is what op was lamenting as well.

    • gwbas1c 1 hour ago
      > but I imagine you'll regularly have people wander on to your property

      Well, that depends on how large and obvious your property is.

      Assuming you have a typical suburban 1/2 acre or 1 acre property, the simplest thing to do is put up a fence, or otherwise make sure that there are no trails that go over the property you use.

      Otherwise, you need some kind of bounds marking and obvious "no trespassing" signs.

      FWIW: The site identified public lands near my house that have a lot of trails on it. There are trails that go right behind peoples' yards, and most of them either have fences or sheds that make it obvious where the bounds are.

    • bluGill 1 hour ago
      That is going to depend on location. Most public land is way way out. There are often only a handful of visitors per month, and most of them won't get close to your land. Most of them are locals who know where the bounds are (and probably know you)
      • otherwatersflow 56 minutes ago
        That matches my experience next to state game lands in PA. There's a few hunters in season who know where the lines, especially with OnX, Mostly quiet the rest of the year.
    • dboreham 1 hour ago
      It means that nobody can build more houses "up the road" from you. That's the primary benefit. Unless the government sells the land, which this government has been trying to do in various places. This one issue is responsible for much of the reduction in republican support in Montana, for example
      • jameshart 36 minutes ago
        If you want similar benefits in more urban environments, consider property next to a cemetery. The neighbors are quiet and the lot is very unlikely to be turned into a strip mall.
      • otherwatersflow 1 hour ago
        [dead]
    • otherwatersflow 1 hour ago
      [flagged]
  • noman-land 1 hour ago
    It's blowing mind a bit that you made this and released it because I was on the verge of doing it myself. Very nice work.

    Really curious about your data sources. Where are you getting all this stuff?

    • otherwatersflow 1 hour ago
      Thanks, that's really nice to hear. Happy to share:

      - Listings: RentCast's API (licensed), pulled weekly.

      - Parcel boundaries: state and county GIS services where they publish statewide parcels (about 20 states), and Realie (licensed) for the rest.

      - Public land: USGS PAD-US 4.1, filtered to fee-owned, open-access land of 50+ acres.

      - Elevation: USGS 3DEP point queries. Roads: Census TIGER. Flood: FEMA's National Flood Hazard Layer. Wildfire: Forest Service Wildfire Hazard Potential (2023). ZIP search: Census ZCTA centroids.

      The free state parcel services were the biggest hunt: every state publishes differently, and a couple that looked open turned out to be test or internal-use-only endpoints.

      • airstrike 47 minutes ago
        Any possibility to include city or county-owned land too?
  • ltsSmitty 1 hour ago
    This is super cool. I love this use of public data to do something cool. The page seems like it's biggest value is to help potential property buyers find property they wouldn't easily be able to otherwise (that's what I like about it). Given that, seems like being able to filter on cost and size of lot would be useful filters on top.
  • hk__2 49 minutes ago
    *in the US only.
  • rafram 52 minutes ago
    Did you exclude NPS units intentionally?
  • tjwebbnorfolk 24 minutes ago
    Are you using this for parcel data? Or are you sourcing them directly from every county

    https://www.kaggle.com/datasets/landrecordsus/us-parcel-laye...

  • otherwatersflow 2 hours ago
    Hi HN, I built this. Listings that say "borders state land" can't easily be checked: you open the county's GIS viewer and line up parcel lines against public-land maps by hand. I did that a lot while looking for land of my own, then automated it.

    How it works, once a week:

    1. About 700,000 active U.S. listings come in from a licensed listings API.

    2. Each listing near public land gets its county parcel boundary, from state and county GIS services where they publish them and from a licensed parcel provider elsewhere. With no boundary, the page says so and measures from the listing point, but never claims a shared edge.

    3. Public land is USGS PAD-US 4.1, narrowed to land an agency actually owns (Category = Fee, so no conservation easements), that's open to the public, and that's at least 50 acres.

    4. Parcel and public land are compared in a local metric projection (shapely/geopandas): within (an inholding), bordering (the boundaries touch, and the shared edge is measured in feet), or adjacent (within 75 m, about a road's width).

    Each property also gets the size of the connected public land behind it, its elevation (USGS 3DEP), road access (Census TIGER roads), FEMA flood zone and Forest Service wildfire hazard. The output is about 16,000 static pages with Leaflet maps on Cloudflare Pages, rebuilt every Monday on a Mac mini. ZIP search looks the ZIP up in your browser from Census centroids, so nothing you type is sent anywhere.

    Things that were harder than expected:

    - Lot sizes sometimes arrive in square feet in the acres field. A Birmingham, AL listing came through at 7,000 acres. Sizes are now checked against price, property type and the parcel itself, and corrected or withheld with a note.

    - Condo and subdivision listings often resolve to the association's common tract, so a single town lot can appear to share miles of boundary. Those are flagged as shared parcels.

    - PAD-US stores some units as one multipart polygon. My first "connected public land" figure for one Montana property was 69.7 million acres, about three-quarters of the state. Units are now split into pieces and joined only where they actually touch.

    - Road centerlines and lot lines come from different agencies and are often tens of meters apart, so "does a road touch this parcel" needs a tolerance, and frontage only counts where the boundary runs along the road.

    It's free, with no account and no cookies. There are free weekly email alerts for any search, starting Monday. I'd especially like to hear from anyone who has bought rural land: what should it measure that it doesn't?

    • someothherguyy 1 hour ago
      > 1. About 700,000 active U.S. listings come in from a licensed listings API.

      What API is that? It looks like you or the data broker are violating some NAR / MLS / State Compliance rules to me. You might want to look into those.

      • qzw 1 hour ago
        Not sure if you meant it that way, but this comes across as a bit hostile. Do you care to share some specific rules you think are being violated?
        • someothherguyy 1 hour ago
          There are gazillion compliance laws, etc, but basic copyright laws commonly cover these things.

          https://www.rentcast.io/terms-api

          > You and We acknowledge and agree that, in the event of a third-party claim arising out of or relating to your access to or use of the RentCast API, or your possession, use, disclosure, display, resale, or distribution of the API Data, including any claim that such activities infringe any third-party’s intellectual property rights or do not comply with applicable laws and/or regulations, you, and not Us, will be responsible for the investigation, defense, settlement, and discharge of any such claim. You will promptly notify Us in writing of any such claim.

          • rafram 54 minutes ago
            Database copyright isn't really a thing in the US.
      • otherwatersflow 1 hour ago
        [flagged]
    • orphea 1 hour ago
      Which LLM did you use?
      • otherwatersflow 1 hour ago
        Mostly Claude Code. I have a background in 3D Design and Geospatial Mapping, the data sources and the decisions about what counts as "bordering" were mine
    • derekhong 40 minutes ago
      [flagged]
  • antonyragleap 1 hour ago
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  • foiowill 1 hour ago
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  • coding123 1 hour ago
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  • verelo 1 hour ago
    I'd love to chat to you about this. I have been solo building in the real estate space for about 5 years now. I've finally got to a point where I make a roughly market salary from it, and I'm starting to venture wider into providing a listing service for everyone from FSBO's to large brokerages. Theres a huge opportunity to displace the position Zillow et al have, but it's riddled with legal challenges and risk (They've done a great job of making it hard to break in).

    If you're up for a chat, please ping me! This is pretty cool and I'm wondering if theres a collaboration, or if I can straight up use some of what you've made.