It's Not Just X. It's Y

(mail.cyberneticforests.com)

62 points | by mooreds 1 hour ago

14 comments

  • ilaksh 1 minute ago
    Surely these leading tells will be trained out of models pretty soon, given how well known and overused they are. And it might make the writing slightly worse in a way. But it is quite annoying how often this type of construction is used in everything at the moment.

    I think that the current models are still like over-achieving savants rather than true human level because the largest model is only 1/10th the complexity of the human brain. I've recently become fairly convinced that new hardware paradigms (like types of CIM) are about to move from research into real-world development and scaling. So I believe within a few years, the model sizes will increase by another 10 times.

    Compared to upcoming 100 trillion parameter models, humans will obviously be _much_ dumber/slower than AI in all fields. Already with the 10T models, some LLMs beat 99.9% of humans in competitive programming.

    The AI hatred from many may actually continue to increase, but in cases where the bottom line matters, we are rapidly approaching the point where writing or work product that looks like it is human-authored will be suspect just on that basis. In other words, for some people it will be the reverse -- "this work looks like it was created by a human" could be devastating for your businesses credibility at that point.

  • Baader-Meinhof 59 minutes ago
    I like that these AI idioms exist. They're like watermarks for text. It's worth the cost of humans avoiding them. Companies will eventually train their models to be undetectable, but society would be better if they didn't.
    • omoikane 33 minutes ago
      > It's worth the cost of humans avoiding them

      That's really unfortunate though. It's like Michael Bolton from Office Space: "No way! Why should I change? He's the one who sucks."

    • chipotle_coyote 35 minutes ago
      Except that the entire point of the article is that they're not AI idioms. They're not "watermarks for text." They're legitimate language constructions that LLMs tend to overuse, but that real humans also use. Real humans do, in fact, say "align with" all the time, just as often as "corresponds."

      And you can pry my em dashes from my cold, dead hands.

      • Maxatar 30 minutes ago
        The article is not God, just because it claims something doesn't mean we have to accept it.

        For better or worse (and pretty much for worse), these usages have become AI idioms. Language evolves over time, things that used to be harmless become offensive, certain terms end up taking on the complete opposite meaning than their original meaning, and we are watching certain language patterns and idioms become watermarks for AI and while it sucks, it doesn't make it false.

      • thewebguyd 29 minutes ago
        What's worse is neurodivergent writing, including my own, often resemble AI output. Now it feels like I'm having to alter my own voice in online discussions just to specifically avoid being accused of pasting an AI response.

        The "AI Detection" tools employed by schools also regularly flag writing from those with Autism, ADHD, and non-native English speakers as being AI generated as well.

        So, naturally, I can't stand the phrase "write like AI" when these things tend to come up because no, there are no humans that "write like AI" it's the models that have stolen the literary devices from us and now have poisoned them.

      • ohyoutravel 32 minutes ago
        Well reading between the lines I don’t think they’re saying all of those uses are AI. They’re legitimate constructs, like the em-dash, en-dash, and hyphen, all of which I used to use regularly. But now they’re AI tells so I use them sparingly.
        • card_zero 25 minutes ago
          Sociolinguistic register happened.
    • wazdra 30 minutes ago
      I agree with the feeling. But if you agree with the analysis of the article, this cat & mouse game ultimately amounts to stop disclosing our reasoning threads through commonly accepted linguistic structures. That's quite a price to pay as a society...
  • karim79 26 minutes ago
    "So, if we publicly shame people whose text looks like it might have been written by a machine – because it mimics the language used for human reasoning – and people stop writing in ways that they internalize as "AI writing" out of fear of false detection, it sends a signal that your language for reasoning must be policed, or you too could be held up to public scrutiny."

    This is honestly both terrifying and well articulated.

    High praise to the blog author.

    • card_zero 20 minutes ago
      There are plenty of idioms, find a different idiom, tough titties.
  • Retr0id 1 hour ago
    > RLVR is weirder, and I suspect it's why we see "It's not X, it's Y" so often.

    This feels like an easy enough hypothesis to verify, for anyone in the business of training LLMs - does the not-X-but-Y rate increase after RLVR?

    • andy99 53 minutes ago
      It’s unlikely this is true. LLMs are way more mad-libs / templates than we like to admit, that’s (ironically) not a judgement about their capability, it’s primarily just an observation. But it’s also what plain old SFT, which I believe is the primary culprit, ends up imparting.
  • coldtea 33 minutes ago
    >Recent overuse by language models has led many to declare it bad writing. I'm not so sure.

    It is bad writing.

    • verbify 26 minutes ago
      Always? There's never a place for it?
    • chrisweekly 26 minutes ago
      I'd say it's average writing.
  • amarant 22 minutes ago
    Clearly humans always type "it's not merely X, but also Y"
  • wrs 57 minutes ago
    This is how early forms of "reasoning" in LLMs worked: just literally inserting words like "Wait...", "Hmm...", "Let me reconsider...", "But is it really..." into the token stream.
    • flexagoon 31 minutes ago
      Is this not how current forms of reasoning work? It seems like the open models still output things like that, and the closed ones all just summarize their thinking instead to avoid distillation, but probably do the same thing internally.
      • wrs 26 minutes ago
        I think the basic idea is the same (not being a frontier lab researcher I couldn’t say for sure), but there are different techniques, such as “reasoning tokens” that aren’t literally words, and more interesting structures than just sticking them into the stream.
  • busssard 38 minutes ago
    nice article, but i think as a non native english speaker, i always use the model in english for reasoning and then translate the output to my language. most of these considerations do not apply. because the translation step is taking out alot of these language artifacts
    • phildenhoff 29 minutes ago
      Do you manually translate or translate with an LLM? While reading, I was wondering how common these kinds of written tics are in languages outside English.
  • HarHarVeryFunny 42 minutes ago
    > In the end, shaming people for writing that gets flagged as AI can lead people to sidestep structures the model has learned from us

    It's interesting why LLMs generate constructions like this more frequently than they presumably exist in the training set. I wonder if this is some sort of mode collapse caused by post training, and/or maybe because they are training on synthetic data so these things become self-perpetuating and self-amplifying (a feedback loop)?

    The lesson for humans worried about being falsely identified as AI is just learn to write better! It doesn't matter where your repertoire of phrasing comes from (copying AI or not), but one of the basic rules of writing is not to repeat yourself unless you are doing so deliberately for a purpose. Go ahead and use "It's not just X. It's Y" if you want to, but if you use it multiple times in the same short piece of writing, then you may deserve to be called out for poor style, if not for being an AI.

    • Maxatar 25 minutes ago
      Its not model collapse nor does it have anything to do with training data frequency. It's simply RLHF where the humans hired to tune the conversational style of these LLMs preferred certain idioms over others and so the reward function for these LLMs gravitated toward using them.

      If LLMs generated text based on training data frequency they'd likely be some of the most vulgar and hostile things ever created. The internet is full of insults, profanity, and low effort content. The repeated phrases are a side effect of reward optimization rather than some kind of model collapse.

  • rq1 34 minutes ago
    You’re absolutely right to push back on this.

    Sometimes it’s not just about the Ys but also the Qs.

  • ai_slop_hater 25 minutes ago
    > Because if Pangram's AI system found me guilty, that's the end of my career. That's literally extortion.

    How is this different from humans? When I went to high school, my teachers extorted me too. Especially subjects like English and unlike Math, where evaluation is 100% subjective.

  • rvz 1 hour ago
    Another bunch of dead give aways in code bases with READMEs is the repetitive:

    - "No X, No Y, No Z." pattern

    - "Here is X - it makes Y"

    The worst and most obvious one is the constant over use of emoji ticks and crosses.

    • Retr0id 57 minutes ago
      For calibration purposes, I offer you a pre-LLM README I wrote that includes an em-dash* followed by "No X, No Y, No Z": https://github.com/DavidBuchanan314/stelf-loader

      *actually a hyphen but it's functioning as an em dash.

      • zamadatix 45 minutes ago
        "Hyphen functioning as an em dash" is an expected human thing as it's what's easy to type. It's specifically an actual em dash which got bulldozed, much to the dismay of those who bothered to put the unicode character in.
        • edbaskerville 41 minutes ago
          If you read The Mac is Not a Typewriter in 1992—thus burning Option-Shift-hyphen into your typing patterns for life, along with a dogmatic love for serif body fonts—you're the real victim here.
          • zamadatix 26 minutes ago
            Or those of us that use a full featured editor when writing md!

            This reminds me of another em dash+AI related topic: I've noticed LLMs have an extreme bias towards spaces around the dash while people can go either way with it.

          • rzzzt 15 minutes ago
            There's something similar in Microsoft Word, Ctrl-Alt-Minus on the numpad.
        • galleywest200 40 minutes ago
          I prefer the double dash "--", but Microsoft products will convert this to a proper em-dash if you press space afterwards, I think...
          • Grimblewald 37 minutes ago
            Double should map to endash, tripple for em.
        • Retr0id 40 minutes ago
          A lot of the LLM bots on HN (and elsewhere) will find-and-replace their em dashes with hypens in an attempt to evade detection.
          • zamadatix 37 minutes ago
            Precisely, anything to remove AI smells in favor of natural looking text.
            • Retr0id 36 minutes ago
              My point is I don't consider em dash vs hyphen to be a strong signal either way, humans and bots alike use both interchangeably.
              • zamadatix 32 minutes ago
                A signal is not the same thing as a guarantee. Both of your points so far, i.e. your provided text & that bots often bother to replace em dashes to avoid detection, actually support that it is a signal though.
                • Retr0id 28 minutes ago
                  The stronger signal is the grammatical structure, not the specific glyph used.
                  • zamadatix 26 minutes ago
                    The stronger yet signal is both combined! This glyph, that emoji, a given sentence structure, that formatting, a certain phrase. The more you notice -> the stronger the signal, the more you miss/discard -> the weaker the signal.
      • edbaskerville 45 minutes ago
        and we will now hold you responsible!
    • Grimblewald 39 minutes ago
      Alternatively, no one sounds like an llm, an llm sounds like someone, typically those close to the median of the training corpus. If AI were genuinly capable of novelty, it would be a big deal, tech bros having enough work ethic to design new detectable prose for an llm is a mssive reach and has no real evidence supporting it, else why do tech bros only tackle the easier issues? Things we have massive well labelled corpi for? Why is it never dishwashing and folding laundry?

      I put to you, if you see a trope in AI writing it's because that trope appeared in the training corpus. Therefore, sure, being predjudice against it lets you catch some AI, but you'll also flag human outout. I think that may not be worth it in the end.

  • huflungdung 1 hour ago
    You’re absolutely right. This is the smoking gun. This changes everything.
    • matheusmoreira 42 minutes ago
      Now I see the full picture.
      • rzzzt 20 minutes ago
        Wait, there could be more things to consider.
      • flexagoon 30 minutes ago
        I'm zeroing in on the main culprit.
    • Starlevel004 54 minutes ago
      This is the real unlock. Here's the key takeaways.
      • H8crilA 49 minutes ago
        It's not just an unlock. It's a major discovery.
  • adt 44 minutes ago
    • downbad_ 34 minutes ago
      Signs? Those are normal ways of writing? What the hell? Is everything AI now?
      • mschuster91 14 minutes ago
        Problem is, everything gets poisoned by AI these days, and it gets worse when there's some sort of reward attached. Karma points in the case of Reddit and HN, in Wikipedia you got a ton of commercial actors and propaganda/distortion campaigns.

        And that's why everyone on the receiving end of the AI slop deluge is so paranoid.