Every installed PV-panel is a dozen barrels of oil (eq.) less CO2 in the atmosphere. Plus, so much fun to generate your own power! Can highly recommend it, even starting small.
It's addictive though. Living in the center of the city (The Hague, NL), with a home battery, I'm now 100% self-sufficient electrically for 10 months of the year.
Hey jstsch, would you mind answering some questions?
- Did you need/use an electrician to set this up?
- How much KWh capacity do your batteries have?
- What about fire safety? Did you install outside, or inside?
- I assume dec/jan are the months you're not fully self-sufficient, are you allowed to charge from grid to do arbitrage over time, or is that another can of worms?
Set it up myself, mostly. Some specific tasks like bringing three-phase power to the garage and hooking up the breaker box I did with an electrician. But installing an additional circuit inside the breaker box, or putting new conduit up, is easy to do safely yourself. Pre-wired breaker boxes can be configured online and are cheap.
The battery is 16kWh. Effectively around 14kWh, since you never fully discharge. LiFePo4, so no chance of spontaneous combustion like other battery chemistries.
I'd say the months Nov→Feb are tricky, although since I have quite a bit of excess solar capacity there are even in December plenty of days where the battery pulls me through the night.
Charging/discharging from/to the grid is possible, since I have a retrofit inverter (AC to battery), but not doing it yet, have to do a bit more research (dynamic pricing, tax is >50% of the kWh price in NL, etc).
Its estimated that a PV panel is co2 neutral aver 2 years.
And the great thing is: this is only if the panel was produced with fossil fuels. So due to increase in green energy everywere, this number goes down too and a PV can easily be used for 15 years and after. After that it might just be more economicly to reinvest in a new set of PV panels while the old ones can be sold and used somewere else.
About 1/10 or so of the output of the panel, e.g. 1 barrel of input energy making and transporting panels saves 10 barrels in fossil fuel energy. That's a rough number assuming a particular mix of oil based energy and no energy cost to procuring the fossil fuels used in the comparison.
On your map, let's say the source is valid, UK has $0.4.
I'm from CZ, we have $0.35.
UK has more than double median salary, DOUBLE. Which means that in some cities it will be actually more like 2x or 3x smaller. But price of electricity is more or less same in the whole country here.
Don't tell me something about expensive electricity and saving money. Because on top of that, let's check affordable housing stats
- Power supply: Solar inputs: up to 60 V, mains current 230 V
- Protection rating: IP67
- Material: Solar modules: glass and aluminium frame
- Inverter: Cast aluminium
- Dimensions: approx. L 172.2 x W 113.4 x H 3 cm (per solar module)
approx. L 25,3 x W 22.2 x H 3.5 cm (inverter)
- Weight: approx. 56 kg
- Scope of delivery: 2 x Premium solar panels, each 440WP, Black, Bifazial; 1 x Premium inverter 800 Watt with WiFi; 1 x connection cable (5 m), safety plug; Quick start guide
How does panel shut-off work for emergency responders? Where I live, a solar energy system is required to have a shut off switch. For example, my system has a big red handle mounted on the side of the house. This is important not just for first responders like firefighters but also for linemen repairing downed lines, which are pretty common where I live (a mountainous rural area).
Given that these store-bought panels are being plugged into house AC, it follows that they have built-in inverters. Many grid-tied inverters are “grid follow”, meaning that they adjust themselves to grid frequency/phase. So, just speculating here… maybe the inverter senses when the mains go down and turns itself off? I would love to know from an EE what is actually happening wrt safety.
It'll be the same as larger inverters for roof-top solar - they are constantly monitoring the mains cycle and will shut off if the voltage (or probably frequency too?) goes out of range, let alone drops out entirely. The relevant standards in the UK are G98/G99.
I bought a 1600Wc + 1.9KWh kit (Ecoflow Stream) for +/- 1300€ last summer. It took us about 2h to install (we had to setup a new plug outside), and I already saved 200€+ since July. I am expecting to save about 350€ per year.
Also, as u/jstch said, it's extremely fun to setup and generate your own power!
Mine was around 4 years and its west south + a tree in the middle. So spring and autom the tree is no problem but in summer lunch hpeak there is shadow on it.
The special definition of "balcony solar" is that it avoids most of those requirements. It seems this is usually done by adding a clamp meter to the input to the house, which sends a control signal to the panel inverter over Wifi to reduce output if it would be feeding back.
My guess as a Dutch guy, not 100% familiar with our neighboring country's rules etc):
Yes, exporting to the grids. If a house has an old Ferraris meter, it will rotate backwards or a new, smart(er) meter, that has a separate counter for delivery back to the grid.
Check with your local utility. Here, (MA, USA), we can't run classic balcony solar (feeds the grid when you produce more than you consume). But we can run zero-export solar (never feeding the grid, but dialing back the inverter when you produce more than you consume).
The economics behind battery-backed zero-export solar are interesting because they keep your local solar energy local, and you can extract maximum benefit from the system. Also, if you have enough batteries and TOD rates for grid power, you can store grid energy when it's cheap (overnight) and use it locally when it's expensive.
Our local utility, National Grid, has a program where, if you have the right inverter-battery combination, they will buy power from you during peak-load periods, and you can make a couple of grand a year.
Batteries, especially local ones, change the dynamics of power generation and use. It's amazing and wonderful.
The UK regs update[1] mentions a battery, but you have to pay for it so I don't have the details.
It appears your could legally install one of these panels on the 15th of this month, but there presumably won't be any certified to comply with the regs on sale yet.
What do you mean? Do you mean small solar panel for smartphones? Because the panels in the article are over a square meter big. Mine make 200-400 watts on sunny days
No your normal socket can be used the other way around without issues and that reverse load doesn't create a problem.
Its even reducing your load on your main line beause the energy directly flows into the next consumer.
German socket has earth, thats fine. It has protection mechanism and shuts down if it can't sync to the powergrid. The panels only produce (in peak!) 400-800 watts. Thats not an issue.
It’s the same thing. Say you have a bill of 120€/year. On average that comes to 10€/month (120€ divided by 12 months). If you have save 10% a month you save 1€, which after 12 months becomes a saving of 12€. Now do that yearly: 10% of 120€ is… 12€.
How is this handled in your country?
We're talking only about solar panels which plugs directly into your main.
Because here, small country in EU, this is not allowed since it would mean ridiculous investment into electric infrastructure.
It's heavily regulated and you need special electric meter, license, etc. and still price of electricity is negative in certain times during the day, because everyone who could, got their solar power plant from EU subsidies.
In Germany there was zero investment into the electric infrastructure, but the power allowed to flow from the panels into the grid is currently limited to 800W for this type of system. Seems to work fine. Larger systems still need a license.
I've been seeing headlines of this sort last few weeks. It points to Europe preparing for the next time the Hormuz is blocked off. But are there actual actions taken beyond those that save 10 percent on an apartment's electricity bills?
Are there large scale mitigation measures that would actually soften the impact of another energy shortage in a serious way?
Why do Europeans need permission from their governors to buy solar panels? I bet you also need to pay taxes on the energy you generate even though you alleviate the infrastructure need.
Because those "governors" need to first ensure that their grids and home electrical systems are equipped to handle a solar system pumping into the house power system.
You speak as though that were a bad thing. I'd rather not have people accidentally burning their houses down.
Once it's approved for an area, you go to your local shop, buy an approved PV system, and plug it in. No fuss, no worries, and your insurer must cover it.
If you pay tax on generated energy they would have to let you deprecate the cost of the panel as a cost. Would be interesting as to where that lands and if it makes much tax revenue at all.
It's addictive though. Living in the center of the city (The Hague, NL), with a home battery, I'm now 100% self-sufficient electrically for 10 months of the year.
- Did you need/use an electrician to set this up? - How much KWh capacity do your batteries have? - What about fire safety? Did you install outside, or inside? - I assume dec/jan are the months you're not fully self-sufficient, are you allowed to charge from grid to do arbitrage over time, or is that another can of worms?
The battery is 16kWh. Effectively around 14kWh, since you never fully discharge. LiFePo4, so no chance of spontaneous combustion like other battery chemistries.
I'd say the months Nov→Feb are tricky, although since I have quite a bit of excess solar capacity there are even in December plenty of days where the battery pulls me through the night.
Charging/discharging from/to the grid is possible, since I have a retrofit inverter (AC to battery), but not doing it yet, have to do a bit more research (dynamic pricing, tax is >50% of the kWh price in NL, etc).
And the great thing is: this is only if the panel was produced with fossil fuels. So due to increase in green energy everywere, this number goes down too and a PV can easily be used for 15 years and after. After that it might just be more economicly to reinvest in a new set of PV panels while the old ones can be sold and used somewere else.
This is with today's efficiencies. They are of course improving.
[1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/cost-of-e...
On your map, let's say the source is valid, UK has $0.4. I'm from CZ, we have $0.35.
UK has more than double median salary, DOUBLE. Which means that in some cities it will be actually more like 2x or 3x smaller. But price of electricity is more or less same in the whole country here.
Don't tell me something about expensive electricity and saving money. Because on top of that, let's check affordable housing stats
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/affordabl...
Yep, one of the worst in EU, yaay.
Product Features:
- Name: VALE MiniPV 880-EF8N
- Control: Free App
- Communication: WiFi 2.4 GHz
- Performance: max. 800 W
- Tension: approx. 230 V
- Frequency: 50 Hz
- Power supply: Solar inputs: up to 60 V, mains current 230 V
- Protection rating: IP67
- Material: Solar modules: glass and aluminium frame
- Inverter: Cast aluminium
- Dimensions: approx. L 172.2 x W 113.4 x H 3 cm (per solar module) approx. L 25,3 x W 22.2 x H 3.5 cm (inverter)
- Weight: approx. 56 kg
- Scope of delivery: 2 x Premium solar panels, each 440WP, Black, Bifazial; 1 x Premium inverter 800 Watt with WiFi; 1 x connection cable (5 m), safety plug; Quick start guide
Given that these store-bought panels are being plugged into house AC, it follows that they have built-in inverters. Many grid-tied inverters are “grid follow”, meaning that they adjust themselves to grid frequency/phase. So, just speculating here… maybe the inverter senses when the mains go down and turns itself off? I would love to know from an EE what is actually happening wrt safety.
Same legislation as the non-plug&play inverters.
I bought a 1600Wc + 1.9KWh kit (Ecoflow Stream) for +/- 1300€ last summer. It took us about 2h to install (we had to setup a new plug outside), and I already saved 200€+ since July. I am expecting to save about 350€ per year.
Also, as u/jstch said, it's extremely fun to setup and generate your own power!
South facing?
Buying supports for PV is actually less economical than buying additional PV panels.
--
[1] https://imgur.com/a/tDPevmM
You have special electric meter and you are distributing solar power into the grid outside of your household?
Or you don't distribute electricity into the grid?
(this is country dependent)
With a e-meter, you will get compensated when you're generating a surplus (+/- €0.04/kWh last time I checked).
However, thanks to the battery, I'm self-consuming almost all that electricity, saving around €0.30/kWh.
Expect 800kWh of annual production per 1kW of panels.
The economics behind battery-backed zero-export solar are interesting because they keep your local solar energy local, and you can extract maximum benefit from the system. Also, if you have enough batteries and TOD rates for grid power, you can store grid energy when it's cheap (overnight) and use it locally when it's expensive.
Our local utility, National Grid, has a program where, if you have the right inverter-battery combination, they will buy power from you during peak-load periods, and you can make a couple of grand a year.
Batteries, especially local ones, change the dynamics of power generation and use. It's amazing and wonderful.
It appears your could legally install one of these panels on the 15th of this month, but there presumably won't be any certified to comply with the regs on sale yet.
[1] https://electrical.theiet.org/amendment-4-updates-to-18th-ed...
Inspection revealed it had two 6 Volt 10 Watt panels in parallel and then 12V to 5V USB-converter.
When panels were reconnected in series it was quite OK.
Little worried about Lidl-quality also on larger scale.
I wonder for how many people it will work in practice?
Putting panels on the roof should be much more efficient…
Does it need its own earth? Will it switch off if it detects a residual current? Can it handle spikes in load?
Its even reducing your load on your main line beause the energy directly flows into the next consumer.
German socket has earth, thats fine. It has protection mechanism and shuts down if it can't sync to the powergrid. The panels only produce (in peak!) 400-800 watts. Thats not an issue.
works well and is probably now refinanced.
Because here, small country in EU, this is not allowed since it would mean ridiculous investment into electric infrastructure.
It's heavily regulated and you need special electric meter, license, etc. and still price of electricity is negative in certain times during the day, because everyone who could, got their solar power plant from EU subsidies.
https://tukes.fi/-/ala-kayta-pistorasiaan-kytkettavaa-aurink...
If you want solar panels without having to get an electrician, you'd need to connect them to a battery that's not connected to the mains.
If they think they can get an ounce more sunshine, they'll hang it over the edge, badly
You speak as though that were a bad thing. I'd rather not have people accidentally burning their houses down.
Once it's approved for an area, you go to your local shop, buy an approved PV system, and plug it in. No fuss, no worries, and your insurer must cover it.
The post is about permission to plug solar panels into your main electricity.
Eg.: Small EU country, definitely not allowed and under huge fines. Without proper equipment, solar power plant license etc. etc.