Scientists identify brain waves that define the limits of 'you'

(sciencealert.com)

133 points | by mikhael 6 hours ago

12 comments

  • augusteo 3 hours ago
    The manipulation part is what fascinates me. They didn't just correlate alpha wave frequency with ownership perception. They used transcranial stimulation to artificially speed up or slow down the waves, and the subjective experience changed accordingly.

    That's a pretty direct causal link between a measurable brain state and something as fundamental as "where does my body end?"

  • eat_lemons 1 hour ago
    I do wonder how far they would get with the phantom limb stuff. We know phantom limb stuff is encoded before birth so would alpha waves adjust something so fundamential?
  • raincom 4 hours ago
    Original Paper: Parietal alpha frequency shapes own-body perception by modulating the temporal integration of bodily signals, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-025-67657-w

    https://news.ki.se/how-brain-waves-shape-our-sense-of-self

  • roughly 3 hours ago
    FTA:

    > With a third group of participants, they used a non-invasive technique called transcranial alternating current stimulation to speed up or slow down the frequency of a person's alpha waves. And sure enough, this seemed to correlate with how real a fake hand felt.

    I know this is largely orthogonal to the article, and I know what “non-invasive” means and why it’s used in this sentence, but it made me chuckle - “this technique that changed the subject’s brain waves sufficient to literally impact their sense of self - but don’t worry! It’s non-invasive!”

    • nashashmi 1 hour ago
      If invasive means using surgical tools to open up the skin and organs, then non-invasive means all things that don't require surgical tools.

      OTH nearly all brain experiments are non-invasive. Did they mean to use the word to downplay how seriously impacting the experiment was?

    • marcd35 2 hours ago
      i guess putting your head in a microwave would also be considered "non-invasive" according to this logic. makes sense!
    • SlightlyLeftPad 1 hour ago
      “...it's not out of the question that you might have a very minor case of serious brain damage. But don't be alarmed all right...[it’s non-invasive]”
    • taneq 3 hours ago
      It’s not an invasion, it’s just a “special operation”!
    • falcor84 3 hours ago
      [flagged]
      • xboxnolifes 1 hour ago
        Nah, in the context of weaponry it is called "less than lethal".
  • patann 35 minutes ago
    Wasn’t this phenomenon already described by VS Ramachandran in his book Phantoms in the Brain?
  • jszymborski 3 hours ago
    This has me thinking of Pluribus
  • reg_dunlop 3 hours ago
    The idea of "ownership of a body" made me think about a quote I heard a long time ago, while talking amongst musicians while waiting to get up and perform. It felt like some secret knowledge that I gained privilege to, while somewhat inebriated and it hasn't left me since.

    > I _have_ a body, I _am_ a soul.

    Maybe what they're identifying is the first half of that statement, how we interpret the former, through the presence of the latter.

    • Tarq0n 1 hour ago
      Dualism is almost always unhelpful as a model. Your soul is a process your body runs, they are indistinguishable.
    • roenxi 2 hours ago
      You can do that with mental phenomenon too - eg, having memories, feelings, consciousness, thoughts. All aspects of "I" that might be present or not - so they can't really be said to be you as much as possessed by you for a moment. Insofar as a soul exists for you to be ... it is quite small.
  • mystraline 2 hours ago
    So, how far does the human electric field extend outside the body? May be only picovolts or in that range... But can we measure that? Does the field exist past our skin?

    Can things like meditation modify that? Or how about stuff like OOBE's like what some folks call astral projection? What do those practices to to the body's electric field?

    • prox 1 hour ago
      There is something like the heart field, about 3 to 4 feet according to the article.

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20664147/

      Meditation can alter a lot of “you” , and there is a reason you learn the advanced stuff under a guru (yoga mostly) or monk (buddhism).

  • BurningFrog 2 hours ago
    So maybe tin foil hats can be useful after all?
  • taneq 3 hours ago
    Wow, that’s really interesting! It seems like alpha waves are the ‘tick rate’ of this system, and some set number of ticks are required to update the body model?
    • rambojohnson 55 minutes ago
      I don’t think the study claims alpha waves are literally the body model’s clock. What they show is that the speed of alpha cycles influences how precisely the brain binds sensory signals to generate the feeling of body ownership.
    • dleeftink 1 hour ago
      It's waves all the way down!
  • BatteryMountain 27 minutes ago
    Interesting.

    Now run the same kinds of tests while listening to music, meditation, sleep, orgasm, psychoactive substances (including caffeine/alcohol/nicotine), during simulated stress event (hard slap in the face?), on different age groups, genders, races. Perhaps there are more than one version or definition of "You" that arises in certain circumstances.

  • 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 3 hours ago
    I don't exist and that's okay
    • hcs 3 hours ago
      Flips switch

      How about now?

      • taneq 3 hours ago
        Have you tried turning your sense of self off and on again?
        • braaileb 3 hours ago
          shh the buddhists are sensitive (got dunked on by Ram)