Aerocart cargo gliders

(aerolane.com)

60 points | by fcpguru 3 days ago

12 comments

  • plantain 2 hours ago
    "Despite the higher mass, takeoff & climb performance of the consist is similar to that of the lead plane flying independently.

    This means the consist is capable of taking off on the same runways and with similar climb profiles as the primary tow plane is alone."

    This is just denying basic physics. Ask any glider pilot how the climb out on aerotow varies based on the weight of the glider being towed.

    • tgsovlerkhgsel 1 hour ago
      This seems to be the make-or-break aspect of the entire idea and the claim does seem incredibly suspect to me too. OTOH lying about something basic like this doesn't seem like a viable "business" idea. Is there any more documentation/evidence/explanation available for this?
  • tintor 4 hours ago
    What is their safety case?

    How are they planning to handle aborted takeoffs of towing plane, for example?

    How does it integrate with ATC? During towing? During landing of glider?

    This video claims that trailer is landing separately and autonomously. Obscure of details. https://www.aerolane.com/news/florida-2025-q1-tests

    • bigwheels 2 hours ago
      Also, how much does it decrease the fuel economy of the towing plane?

      I sure wouldn't want to be on a Boeing 7XX flight with one of these things in tow. Just imagine the possibility for human and machine error, the plane in tow could cause all manner of issues for the leader.

      Ever tried riding a bike and towing someone on another bike or a skateboard? It's perilous. Now do it in the air. Gutsy.

      • cirrus3 2 hours ago
        > how much does it decrease the fuel economy of the towing plane

        Probably a lot, but I'd assume it is by less than the fuel that 1-2x more planes would use, otherwise there wouldn't be a point to doing this.

    • ricardobeat 3 hours ago
      It looks like the prototypes land separately because they are converted aircraft. The production glider uses autopilot and is meant to land behind the main aircraft.
  • sand500 3 hours ago
    Instead, can we implement autonomous formation flying? Each aircraft can still have its own engines and control, but can make a V shape allowing the following planes to run more efficiently.
    • nickff 3 hours ago
      This has been attempted (for a military aircraft IIRC), and proved too difficult to be practical. It may now be possible, but it is more challenging that it appears from just watching our feathered friends.
    • jayde2767 3 hours ago
      I doubt the economics make it a viable use case.
  • dmitrygr 4 hours ago
    Tow-plane pilot for gliders is a dangerous profession. A simple mistake by the glider pilot can kill the tow plane pilot, with not enough time to react. I saw this happen in person once (https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/G...). Gliders and towing them is neither easy nor safe.
    • aseg 3 hours ago
      In gliding, tow upsets are pretty common and, in rare cases, can be fatal. An out-of-position glider out can _easily_ and very quickly overcome the tow planes elevator authority (ability to pitch up or down) which leads to accidents like this. This video does a good job explaining explaining the root causes and potential dangers (https://youtu.be/5cpqFzhM9dY?si=J7GxP1dI9Xopy3xu). Also read the comments from testimonials from other glider pilots.

      This is my biggest concern with this concept as well. Towing things is challenging because the tow plane's center of gravity can change drastically depending on the forces on the glider it is towing -- if the glider deploys its spoilers / crabs in a crosswind / gets in your wake turbulence you're not going to be able to predict how it changes your CG (and your control authority) without training or experience. Also, with gliders, the tow plane is traveling at around 60MPH to 90MPH, with a decision window of 2-3 seconds. Commercial planes travel at ~500 MPH... The concept seems like a hard sell to the pilot unions. I bet they've thought about this though.

      • tgsovlerkhgsel 1 hour ago
        > An out-of-position glider out can _easily_ and very quickly overcome the tow planes elevator authority

        Would this not be trivially solvable with a system that detects the situation (e.g. by measuring the forces acting on the towing plane's attachment point) and detaches the tow? If in the final concept the towed plane would be unmanned and wouldn't contain fuel, even a crash would not be particularly catastrophic.

        • dmitrygr 9 minutes ago
          You miss read. It causes the crash of the leading plane, not of the following one, so the glider having no fuel is completely irrelevant

          As for a system that measures forces, that’s not likely to work either. Transient forces are OK, but the same force over a little bit of time is enough to force a nose down attitude that is unrecoverable. Attempting to draw the line unequivocally between the two is difficult because it depends on conditions, weights, centers of gravity, and many other things.

  • JKCalhoun 2 hours ago
    Reference on their page to the (obvious inspiration) Waco gliders of WWII: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_CG-4
    • squirtle24 1 hour ago
      The military gliders made sense because they were landing in hostile territory, usually nowhere near a runway for a return trip. Those gliders were pretty much a one-way, one-time-use vehicle. I guess the Waco glider could be used to argue that towing is technically feasible, but it was intended for a totally different use case. I don't see how it can be argued that it's more economical to run, especially considering the safety issues others have pointed out.

      I'm no aerospace engineer but it seems like it would be more efficient to fly one single bigger plane than to tow a second one behind it. I suppose this might appeal to certain groups where they already own a plane, and want to increase capacity without buying a whole new plane. But the idea that it's 65% more efficient just seems pretty sketch. I could totally imagine some drug cartels using these though...

  • undebuggable 2 days ago
    I use my cargo gliders only for full scale landing operations.
  • drpixie 3 days ago
    Really? Those who have had anything to do with gliders know there is plenty that can and will go wrong. Landing on-tow !?!? And what's the benefit - they might save a little in cruise, but they've got to get there (safely) first?
    • grues-dinner 2 days ago
      I'm sure airports will really appreciate half-mile tethers, or whatever length you need for full-sized cargo planes, flopping about the runways (I assume they're aiming for full size because their little graphics doesn't show a little GA thing)

      Even assuming a full size one doesn't fatigue off the tail of the lead plane, presumably any time a plane towing one gets into difficulty, the first thing they'll do is cut the towed thing free.

      Also the website sounds like it was written by an over-caffeinated estate agent.

      • spacebacon 2 days ago
        I agree, I don’t see this working on existing commercial cargo planes without significant engineering challenges. I also don’t see this working for existing air control systems. I do see it working for private airfields designed for it and tow planes designed for it but that is out of scope. I wonder if they get their own adsb signal?
      • devilbunny 3 hours ago
        Farther down they talk about it being made for the regional cargo market, largely turboprop planes (e.g., Cessna Caravan). That's certainly what the brief video clips show.
      • jayde2767 3 hours ago
        I imagine these would have to be flown out of specialized cargo airports. It would be a disaster coming out of Commercial airports.
    • lschueller 4 hours ago
      Yes, this was one of the first things that came to my mind: landing a towed glider right behind a motorized machine is just a bit too adventurous... Especially when winds a not 100 percent in optimum for a safe landing approach. Gliders should always eject mid air an land on their own.. Minimizing risks for any machine or even individuals
    • jayde2767 3 hours ago
      Not to mention, what happens in the event of damage to the towed aircraft rendering flight operations impaired such that it affects the towing aircraft?

      “Oh sh1t!” at 35K feet.

    • maxden 4 hours ago
      and what happens in the event of a disconnect?

      It mentions it has a form of automated control in the tow with "Aerolane's patented Pilot Positioning Assist systems"

  • jauntywundrkind 56 minutes ago
    The iterated version where cargo can split off and land would maybe in some cases be interesting. A drone carrier.
  • idontwantthis 3 hours ago
    This sounds like a free lunch to me.
  • riffic 1 hour ago
    air-train?
  • iseanstevens 4 hours ago
    Pretty fascinating concept - take what we are already doing on the roads and translate it to the sky. Could lead to huge efficiency gains.